Views in the industry diverge on whether experienced advisers should be made to go back to school, with some saying there should be some leeway to recognise experience and prior learning.
Lance Meikle, founder and managing director of Generational, said he supported FASEA and its standards, although he thinks the open consultation period should be extended by another 12 months.
“If I have to take a position, I’m pro FASEA and I’m against the industry and I’m all for raising the bar and having a higher educational standard whilst fully recognising people are going to get a poke in the eye,” he said.
“There are people that are going to suffer horrendously from what has been a relatively short period of time for the implementation of the educational frameworks and my view would be to extend that educational framework by 12 months.”
On prior learning, Mr Meikle added he does not think experience is equal to education.
“Where I find it complex and I don’t have the answer, and I don’t think anyone does, they have opinions like me, is the recognised prior learning,” he said.
“Personally, I’m not in the camp supporting years of service equals replacement of education.”
Mr Meikle added although he has empathy for people in the sector who will be impacted financially, he thinks financial advising has to meet a baseline in order to establish itself as a profession.
“The argument moves to experience and money, and that is coming from a self-centred position, not an industry position. I have empathy for people who are impacted and will be impacted,” he said.
“But from an industry framework perspective, education must be exactly in line with what’s been proposed by the supporters of FASEA, which I’m one of them, and that is it has to be an educational based solution to an industry.”
Mr Meikle said the level of education implemented should be in line with other professions in the finance industry.
“What that level of education is I think must be mandatory at a minimum in line with other professionals in our same country in the same sectors,” he said.
“We’re in the financial sector, so you’re gonna look at banking, you’d look at insurance, you would look at accountancy, you’d look at taxation, and you’d say what is the benchmark that’s required for a consumer for someone to call themselves a professional in those sectors.
“And we’re well short of that in the financial planning sector if I’m talking financial planning.”
Tony Bice, director of Finance Made Easy, said while he can understand ensuring an overall level of product knowledge and professionalism, he questioned whether an adviser having worked in the industry should do the level of education as someone entering the market.
“A financial planner with 20 years’ experience I believe probably shouldn’t have to go through and sit through a six-year degree or a five-year degree in line with a 22-year-old who’s just done a line in financial planning,” Mr Bice said.
“There should be some sort of leeway in which an experienced financial planner can have a reduced course to achieve the requirement accreditation.”
Pamela Anderson, director of Beyond iWealth, has previously spoken to ifa in regard to her views on how FASEA unfairly affects women in the industry, having helped write a letter to deputy opposition leader and shadow minister for women Tanya Plibersek with other female advisers.
“Where it becomes difficult there is often women working in the industry have other demands,” she said.
“They may have children that they’re looking after, young children, or children during BCE so they need to be there to provide support to them. Or they may be supporting parents.”
Ms Anderson said, in regard to herself, the standards will create difficulties in managing her own business, with it requiring her to complete a master’s degree.
“If I do this master’s, I’m going to try and push it through in four years. I want to do it part-time, that’s six years already, so I’m already two years behind,” she said.
“I run a business, I have young children, I have a father with dementia. So, how am I going to find time?”
Ms Anderson added that she is not against FASEA, but does want them to extend the time frame for advisers to complete their training, from four years to a minimum of six to eight to allow for part-time study.
“I’m not against having a higher standard education,” she said.
“I am, however, very passionate about making sure that women are staying in the industry or are motivated to do and do the education to become advisors, and so therefore making it a fair timeframe.”
I don’t think Ms Anderson has researched the Master qualification. 4 subjects a year will get you done in 3 years and that is part time.
Barnaby Joyce should prepare the FASEA Ethics course. As an industry, we can all learn so much from him.
So advisers get audits every year on the content of their advice and which is tested against best interest and all the current laws we currently have, but everyone currently working within financial advice doesn’t know what advice they are giving what a load of BS it would be better to change the laws for companies all the structures and rules all happen before it ever gets to a financial planner yet we are the ones that are dictated the rules these people are nuts. We are constantly blamed for everything mainly due to greedy lawyers seeing dollar signs. Insert the millions of ads we see lawyers giving advice on financial products without a financial licence eg insurance products and then charging for their time plus the 30% they add onto the lump sum payout
Kelly O’Dwyer needs a job…
Anyone?
Over Bloody Complicated ODwyer has been a complete wrecking ball to the Supet and Advice industries including FARCEA hat she implemented.
Now we find out she really wants to Nationalise the whole Super Industry and have the ever so incompetent Government of both major parties run it. What a freaking joke and I truely hope that ODwyer loses her seat in the up coming election.
No need she has seen the writing on the wall and bailed like they always do.
Listen to the martyrs out there.
Your missing the point.
Your freedom, your career and your business has been stolen from you for NO GOOD REASON.
It is solely for fees and votes.
Wake up.
What a couple of cry babies! From people that support FASEA no less.
How can you say in one breath ‘I support everything FASEA stands for …. but give me more time’
Or ‘I think the whole industry needs a minimum degree level – but a reduced RPL requirement for tenure.’
or ‘FASEA is critical – but lets get special treatment for women’
Both Mr Meikle & Ms Anderson support the FASEA concept – but want it changed. This is your bed – you now get to lay in it along with the rest of us.
You don’t like the way regulation is applying to your own special circumstances – well tough luck. Welcome to the world of Financial Advising.
Exactly right.
‘Standards should be raised, unless they inconvenience me’.
Sexism card a new low/level of laziness.
I agree with most of these comments. A higher standard was necessary yet not to be able to be called a profession. that is just a label and means nothing, really. if it was really something that stopped bad behaviour then there would be no accountants, solicitors, GP’s etc in clink. its time to think outside of the box. rogues will be rogues and education does not change that. however, if intent is to lift knowledge and broaden advice to the betterment of our clients, then this goes some way to do that… yet it would make sense, if that were the intent, for the education to be client focused – strategies in the main – not product nor un-necessary sections of the Corps Act… nor ethics – one does not learn ethics from a book. and neither do ethics change much, so to examine ethics every year makes no sense at all… unless you are an academic insto who makes money from it.
Experience – look at the CPD and quality thereof. If that record is a sound one, end of story.. or, if you wish to test knowledge have an exam that is meaningful to areas of advice provided by the adviser. Harder to deliver, yet not that hard. Once exam is passed, there is surely no need to impose further academic study on long term advisers ie who have maybe 15yrs + in advice facing roles.
Again, apply some different thinking.
Licencees know who is strong or weak in their flock – let that be a starting point for assessing what education is required. After all, that is the current regime for our CPD… the AFSL decides what your individual programme needs to be. By extension, and having completed the now more reasonable exam (with luck it is different from proposed), the new CPD programme can be built and the bar lifted accordingly.
New entrants or those with little experience, by all means have the FASEA programme. with a reduction in Corps Act and ethics proportion and an increase in strategy.
I support an extension of the consulting period and implementation… we dont even have the material to study yet or an exam available yet the clock has started ticking. Farcical.
Haha wow now were pulling out the sexism card for asking both genders to complete further study. We’ve hit a new low as an industry trying to avoid the hard work to be a profession.
[quote=Dan]I think its time we all just got on with it. FASEA and the education requirements arent changing. Personally, I started my own business 12 months ago, no degree, have 3 children under 4.5 and in the last 12 months, completed the Grad Cert, and will complete the Grad Dip in 5 weeks time. I have 2 subjects to complete my Masters now by the end of the year. [/quote]
What I read is you are a full time daddy that studies! That is not the description of a real FP business!
Dan, I think you have been misled into believing that getting a degree in financial planning means that you understand a lot about investments (for example). Sadly this is just not true. And this is one of the biggest flaws that I see in the mind-set of FASEA …. and in fact FASEA seem to be misleading the public into believing that a newly minted degree means that upi know a lot. Well it does not mean that you know a lot, as every other profession before us knows. Experience and ongoing study over the years is far more important as every other profession knows. Bruce
Um, given a normal distribution of IQ for the population, he might just be a long way out on the RHS – a smart and capable man.
In no well-established profession, does being extremely bright act as a substitute for lots of experience. For every well-established profession, being extremely bright but just having a freshly minted degree means you are dangerous as you have just started to learn.
18 mths ago I started my master’s Degree knowing full well what was coming. I am a 3rd of the way through and ‘Yes” it has greatly impacted on my young family and indeed created tension in my marriage at times.
Like Ms Anderson, I run a business, I spend considerable amounts of time before and after work as well working on the weekends. My wife, takes our children to school, I pick them up after school/day care has finished at around 5:30pm, I often prepare dinner, get them bathed (jointly with my wife) then I put our 2yr old to bed at around 7pm, then our 7 yr. old will go to bed at around 8:30pm (as it’s the school holidays), I then pick up where I last left my studies that day and can be in the office at any time between 4:30am – 6:30am the next morning. It is Groundhog Day and incredibly draining mentally.
Why am my making the above point? The comment ‘Where it becomes difficult there is often women working in the industry that have other demands,” I find offensive,
I truly have a great respect for women and would like to see more in our industry, but you know…. men also share the same demands that are placed on women when raising a family.
Please stop using the sex discrimination card when in fact this is not the case. The discrimination is against all advisers regardless of sex.
If in case you were indeed wondering, my wife has a full-time job as well. What I would suggest to you Ms Anderson, is this ‘as you have indicated that you have accepted raising education standards’, drop the so called sex discrimination as it is a discrimination against all in the industry and like me, you could have started raising your education standards before this point in time but have chosen not too in the hope education demands would be lessened after various consultations.
For the record, a colleague that I know who a single mother is and raises 3 children without any support whatsoever from the children’s father is also completing her studies at present, she had the foresight to start her education pathway early and it will probably take her 6 years on a part – time basis to complete.
The demands placed on all advisers is erroneous that I do agree with you on.
Your a fool. It won’t help you in the long run. Get your life back and leave this industry.
Stand up and fight for your freedom. You and everyone else should not be made to do this. Stop your pathetic martyrdom nonsense and stop being part of the problem.
Stand up and don’t take it anymore.
Dear Sir or Madam,
what do you propose as a solution? hunger strike at martin place in Sydney ?
I’d be happy to do it, but If I put up a sign saying “financial planner protesting the brutality of the government”, I am afraid people will spit in my face rather than having any sympathy for me.
High Quals FP
Good for you Anonymous one! Well said.
[quote=Dan]I think its time we all just got on with it. FASEA and the education requirements arent changing. Personally, I started my own business 12 months ago, no degree, have 3 children under 4.5 and in the last 12 months, completed the Grad Cert, and will complete the Grad Dip in 5 weeks time. I have 2 subjects to complete my Masters now by the end of the year. [/quote][quote=Dan]I think its time we all just got on with it. FASEA and the education requirements arent changing. Personally, I started my own business 12 months ago, no degree, have 3 children under 4.5 and in the last 12 months, completed the Grad Cert, and will complete the Grad Dip in 5 weeks time. I have 2 subjects to complete my Masters now by the end of the year. [/quote]
The education requirements are still charging:
1. Graduate Diplomas (except a small sprinkling) have NOT yet been approved by FASEA
2. If approved course does not yet cover FASEA code of ethics even though you may have done an approved degree you must complete a FASEA approved bridging subject in ethics.
3. Bridging subjects have NOT yet been approved.
Thats just 3 examples that show the FASEA education requirements are still changing.
[quote=Anonymous]Why does Ms Anderson think she needs to complete a Masters-level qualification? Seems like someone who doesnt understand the pathways for existing advisers.
Do people not read the announcements from FASEA? Or is it just easier to have a bit of whinge…. [/quote]
MS Anderson is probably better informed that FASEA require Graduate Diploma of Financial Planning at minimum the Legislative Instrument. However absurdly FASEA nearly exclusively only has approved Bachelors and Masters. Where are all the Graduate Diplomas that FASEA should have approved?!?
Educators get there masters approved first and then they’ll get the underlying subjects approved for a grad diploma.
You will see them get approved as time goes on.
It is not just Women it is also Men who are caught and have problems.
This whole mess is making the Financial industry worse that being a tax agent
Don’t men have the same amount of time challenges in raising a young family? A spurious argument.
Surely the simple compromise solution would be to retain the current FASEA educational requirements and just add 2-3 years to the deadine.
There’s two different arguments against FASEA. One is that experience should be allowed as a substitute for education. Unfortunately the law doesn’t allow for that, and its pointless blaming FASEA.
The second is that FASEA is not providing sufficient recognition for previous relevant education. FASEA is totally to blame for this. They have acted outside the spirit of the law, and appear to be doing so in order to generate revenue for course providers with links to FASEA Board members. They have been extremely intransigent, and only made very minor concessions as part of a token “consultation process”. The current FASEA Board does not appear willing to act according to the spirit of the law. They should be sacked, and investigated for corruption.
what a load of crap
Having been an adviser for 20 years and involved with the University sector an issue is that the tax payer funded University sector has failed the Advice Industry. As an adviser I have had to do countless amount of hours and yet there is a deficiency in courses targeted at experienced financial advisers. Most courses presently written are aimed at entry level students. As an example there are only two Universities that offer Aged Care courses. Due to adviser numbers in Australia the market place is not large enough for Universities to target this market.
Hence the private sector has filled this gap and I’m sure I’m like most advisers, in addition to my formal education I have had to do a range of short courses, SMSF accreditation, Margin lending, Derivatives and equities, add on TPB requirements and most advisers could rightly claim they have the equivalent of a Graduate Certificate. Therefore experience should count.
Experience without any qualification is not worth course credits. But I agree completely that a degree AND experience means that the holder has been capable of researching and studying the advice they give. NO FURTHER EDUCATION should be necessary if the adviser is able to pass the following test. TEN LETTERS FROM CLIENTS stating how disadvantaged they would have been and might be if they had never been able to work with THEIR TRUSTED ADVISER.
Will you be drafting all these letters for your clients to sign? FFS
Only 10??!!! I could get you OVER 300 client letters including ones where an insurance claim saved their home and saved their family from extreme hardship!
Why does Ms Anderson think she needs to complete a Masters-level qualification? Seems like someone who doesnt understand the pathways for existing advisers. Given she only has the bare minimum quals to be an adviser at any rate, being the 4 subject DipFP, Ms Anderson can meet the ed requirements by doing an 8 subject Grad Dip rather than the longer 12 subject Masters program. She can upgrade to the Masters qual after the 2024 deadline by undertaking additional study & completing the extra 4 units.
Do people not read the announcements from FASEA? Or is it just easier to have a bit of whinge….
No, they dont read the announcements…. People just love to complain if there is ever anything asked of them. I mean seriously, anyone who cant complete a graduate diploma in 5 years (when they should already know the content) probably needs to look at a new career anyways.
You do realise that the HSC chances content over the years and you, yes you, should be able to do it again in ten years time no problem. If you claim to know the content what’s the problem with asking you to keep your education up to date? Same arguement. Like to hear your clever response but I live to be surprised – there might even be praise for your efforts but sorry, no pay rise as that is not in the clients best interests.
They do not listen !!! FULL Stop. Keep hitting your head against the brick walls!
If there is not clarity by the end of this financial year, move on!!
Perhaps that is the intention.
“I am not against FASEA but……”
Mr Meikle added he does not think experience is equal to education.??? 30 years in this industry tells me the opposite. There is no substitute for experience in fact no uni course has ever educated anyone correctly — most of the knowledge absolutely needs to be learnt on the job under experienced people!!!!!!! This is all so screwed up!
While i feel your anguish, i do not agree with your comments, experience is of course invaluable, but, so is education, ideally they would go hand in hand. Your comment that no uni course has every educated anyone correctly, is of course absolute rubbish. I myself have an MBA and currently completing a PhD, I am not defending the academic side of life but education is a requirement that CANNOT be replaced by pure experience
As an owner of an accounting practice, and a partner in a lw firm, I would NOT sit any client in front of a graduate student PERIOD. They may have the knowledge from a text book and have cramped for an exam and gotten through but experience matters in the real world Mr Meilkle. I think you should get your head out of the sand and use it wisely. Clearly you are not.
Terry, you forgot to mention planner as well
Would you sit any of your staff that have had no education in front of clients?
miss ya Terry. come back!
sometimes you dont know what you dont know…..
I think most professionals in the industry agree that raising the bar in financial services is a good thing . But the way FASEA has been structured and the time frames & costs involved are over the top . Especially as far as prior experience is concerned . I know of lawyers who worked on the job to become qualified. So have advisers via Kaplan courses and PD days. Yet no one is asking these lawyers to go back to school or to do 40 hours a year of PD ( they do 10) . I have discussed this with my local member in detail and made a submission to tone things down and make them workable, and above all fair . I keep wondering what the academics will come up with re coursework . I Am across super regulations ( just did a refresher ) negative gearing , direct market access, derivatives , and managed funds, insurance etc . How much padding will these courses have for no other good reason than to justify the exorbitant cost of doing the course . As for those self righteous practitioners out there who like letters after their name , all i can say about that is to just look at the head of our banks and the qualifications they. have . And we all know how that worked out .
I am a male sole adviser practise have children age 2,4,6,10 my father has dementia requiring a lot of my time. I would appreciate more time to srudy as well
Education certainly does not equal years of service. It simply stupid to say that a university graduate will do a better job than an established adviser. Ask a client who they would prefer to deal with.
Sending experienced advisers back to school fixes nothing and actually causes more problems when highly experienced advisers leave the industry. No one has ever clearly explained how sending experienced advisers back to do a degree that teaches what a salary sacrifice strategy is makes a better adviser. Don’t even get me started on how doing a course on ethics will somehow change someone to be more ethical.
FASEA is a knee jerk political decision, one made based on the self interest of bodies like the FPA and universities and has never addressed how the actions announced provide a better outcome for clients. Maybe FASEA needs to live up to a best interest duty like all advisers have to.
I’ve seen some advisers high on experience, low on formal education, who have:
* recommended salary sacrifice contributions to the point that income tax was less than non-refundable offsets
* recommended a client with control of multiple entities make employer superannuation contributions out of the wrong one, creating a loss unlikely to ever be used in an unprofitable entity, and leaving the profitable entity with the income and no offsetting deduction
So sometimes it seems they do need to go back and do a class on salary sacrifice strategies.
Lance, get off your high horse you muppet. You would think differently if you had to waste your time doing this pointless study. No one in the real world (other than you) could ever say you learn more from a university course than you would after spending 10 years doing the job.
Stockbrokers need a diploma, Mortgage brokers need a diploma, general insurance advisers need a diploma, banking executives need nothing other than greed and a lack of empathy. Our educational standards are in line with all the other sectors of the finance industry.
Im all for lifting the educational standards as they are currently a joke, however ive been doing my job for 15 years, have a bachelor degree in commerce and the diploma of financial planning and have nothing to learn from going back to uni. Why not just make it for new enterants and people with less than 10 years experience and no university degree.
When i was at university i was working part time at a shop, renting with my parents help and studying full time. Now ive got a business to run, staff to pay, a mortgage to pay and family to provide for. I have no time to burn sitting in lectures with 18 year olds for no reward.
Agreed, who came up with the idea that a BCom majoring in Economics and Finance wasn’t a related degree………..
The FPA
You’ll find that it’s what’s IN the degree, much more than the NAME of the degree….
Could you be less informed??? I’ll think you’ll find that you will only have to do the ethics course (assuming u have the AdvDipFP & not just the 4 units of the DipFP). So not too much to stress about. It’s the subjects you studied in the degree that count, not the name so much. At worst you will have 3 subjects to do. But if you cant do some research, perhaps you didnt really learn all that much to start with…
Mr Meikle
“We’re in the financial sector, so you’re gonna look at banking, you’d look at insurance, you would look at accountancy, you’d look at taxation, and you’d say what is the benchmark that’s required for a consumer for someone to call themselves a professional in those sectors.
Excuse me am i missing something, accounting i will give you but banking and insurance pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Do you think Mr Meikle is a fictional character created for a story?
I think its time we all just got on with it. FASEA and the education requirements arent changing. Personally, I started my own business 12 months ago, no degree, have 3 children under 4.5 and in the last 12 months, completed the Grad Cert, and will complete the Grad Dip in 5 weeks time. I have 2 subjects to complete my Masters now by the end of the year.
Good for you Dan you have just started your business, so you have far too much time on your hands from not having a mature and comprehensive business. Just having to write new business is great. But wait until the calls come in that require you to have knowledge on behavioural finance. Wait until your clients start talking to mates at the BBQ or reading the Barefoot Investor and of course there are the reviews all of which will compete for your limited hours in the day. Your kids havent gotten to the point where sport and extra curricular activities will also compete for your time. You only have 24 hours in the day. It’s simply not enough to do everything properly.
If you cant bat away questions raised from that poser who shows people what “he’s investing in” but not giving “personal advice”….puhleeasse…. then give the game away mate….
And Dan, you assume they won’t reinvent the educational requirements yet again in another ten years for those persistent financial advisers that just won’t leave the industry. The regulators have consistantly attacked advisers over the last twenty years yet no others in the industry have changed the way they operate. 2hy you assume once your studies are completed you will be clear is niave and unrealistic. The regulators want us gorn.
Dan, what would you say if 5 years from now a conflicted government agency decreed your current studies largely worthless, and forced you to do much of it all over again? And you had to make the same family time and business sacrifices all over again? And pay fees for it all over again? And what would you say to someone whose advice to the future you in such outrageous circumstances was… “I think it’s time we all just got on with it”?
That’s the position many financial advisers are in right now Dan.
Dan, I agree with your thoughts. I saw the writing on the wall 5 yrs ago, so i started and have since completed my Masters. If FASEA bring in some other things I need to do, then so be it. I feel sorry for those advisers that have loads of experience and have to go back to study, but that is the price we (ie financial advisers) have to pay for the way alot of Australians have been treated by the financial services sector.
I am also very frustrated that the banks, AMP and ASIC appear to be getting off pretty lightly (given they are the main cause of it all), but I don’t have time to waste thinking too much about it.